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    slider38User avatar
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    Post Posted » Sat Jan 29, 2011 12:34 pm

    Hi folks, I would like to know if anyone knows how to get rid of the ghost in my traincar. I am trying to create a doubledoor boxcar made from the standard livestock car. First I went into the diff alpha and removed the black markings for the livestock car slats and some unwanted bracing. After re-painting I worked up a new normal file. The car looked like this in NifSkope:
    Doubledoor_Nifskope_image.jpg


    I thought it looked pretty good but might need a roof change. Anyway, I put the car on my test map to get a good look and found this:
    Doubledoor_ghost_box.jpg


    As you can see, it kind of looks like a livestock car stuck inside a boxcar - UGLY! The old bracing and slat lines have all been removed from the normal file. The spec and emsk files are nothing but black squares. I assume, while I have successfully removed various things in the past by alpha-ing them out, putting something new over something that has had an alpha change is creating the problem. I have no idea if this is something that can be fixed or not. Hopefully someone out there has had this issue in the past and knows what can be done. I've invested some hours on this and don't want to just pitch the work, but I'm not interested in butting my head against a wall either if this is something that just can't be done. I am attaching my traincar files should someone have an idea and want to look at where I am. Thanks all, Slider
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    bobbyUser avatar
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    Post Posted » Sat Jan 29, 2011 2:37 pm

    slider38 wrote:Hi folks, I would like to know if anyone knows how to get rid of the ghost in my traincar. I am trying to create a doubledoor boxcar made from the standard livestock car. First I went into the diff alpha and removed the black markings for the livestock car slats and some unwanted bracing. After re-painting I worked up a new normal file. The car looked like this in NifSkope:
    Doubledoor_Nifskope_image.jpg


    I thought it looked pretty good but might need a roof change. Anyway, I put the car on my test map to get a good look and found this:
    Doubledoor_ghost_box.jpg


    As you can see, it kind of looks like a livestock car stuck inside a boxcar - UGLY! The old bracing and slat lines have all been removed from the normal file. The spec and emsk files are nothing but black squares. I assume, while I have successfully removed various things in the past by alpha-ing them out, putting something new over something that has had an alpha change is creating the problem. I have no idea if this is something that can be fixed or not. Hopefully someone out there has had this issue in the past and knows what can be done. I've invested some hours on this and don't want to just pitch the work, but I'm not interested in butting my head against a wall either if this is something that just can't be done. I am attaching my traincar files should someone have an idea and want to look at where I am. Thanks all, Slider

    Are you using the Standard EMSK and SPEC files for this traincar, If so you may copy the originals and rename them to yours and redo them for your new traincar.
    By the way you did not attach the files... :SMR
    snoopy55User avatar
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    Post Posted » Sat Jan 29, 2011 3:34 pm

    You did not make a new boxcar_v2_nrnl.dds (guessing on the first part of that) for your car.

    Go here: viewtopic.php?p=4910#p4910 and in those two there are instructions for creating the NORM/NRML

    I use GIMP and the instructions are for that.

    Also, when you paint OVER an existing DDS, in the game the layer you painted over can show. Once you have it painted the way you want, do a copy and paste to a new DDS for all four of them. This gets rid of the shadowing effect you are seeing.
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    snoopy55User avatar
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    Post Posted » Sun Jan 30, 2011 12:58 pm

    And just to let you know, I was working on the same thing using the same car, I just made a number of structural changes to it. The only real problem I have with it is the skinning. On the sides, the ends and the area the doors cover are separate. On the DDSs, they are transposed, so any graphics would take a lot of time to match up. I'm thinking about trying a decal for the sides. Let me know what you come up with.
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    snoopy55User avatar
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    Post Posted » Sun Jan 30, 2011 3:16 pm

    Well, 2 hours and a lot of frustration later and there is going to be a problem with this one if you want to put any railroad stuff on the sides. It can be done I guess, for certain railroads, but as a decal, unless I'm mlssing something badly, there does not seem to be a way to attach the decal to the car. In other words, when the car bounces around in the game, the decals stay steady.

    If one of our 3D editors want to tackle it, it needs the inside and outside ribs removed, the ends flattened and the 6 inside panels can be stacked all as one piece by themselves. On the attached shot you can see the end walkways on the roof. Ladders below those like the V2 Food Car has would be good to have also.

    If you want the files I have, ask and I'll get them to you.
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    wingsofphoenixUser avatar
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    Post Posted » Sun Jan 30, 2011 10:11 pm

    snoopy55 wrote:In other words, when the car bounces around in the game, the decals stay steady.

    The decals has to be a child node of b_base to let them bounce with the car, otherwise they need a skininstance to b_base (which needs a program for 3d modelling).
    So it should look like:
    Code: Select all
    -> 9 NiNode      b_base
           10 NiNode      decal1
           11 NiNode      decal2
           12 NiNode      ...

    Usually b_base has 2 rotation angles (like Y -90.0, P 0.0, R 90.0) so they need to be negate at the decal nodes (in this case Y 90.0, P 0.0, R -90.0) to show up correct.
    I thought i did explain that to you earlier ;)

    About the 3D editing: that should be easy ;)
    snoopy55User avatar
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    Post Posted » Sun Jan 30, 2011 10:23 pm

    The child of b-base you did explain, and I did try it. NifSkope crashed the first two times and took it the third. It still sat solid while the car bounced. This car has (had) cows which bounced with it, and they are referenced in the KF files. I was figuring the lack of them in the KFs was the reason.

    When I do the rotation angle thing the decals are laying on their sides. The decals were taken from a GP38 where they worked fine.
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    slider38User avatar
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    Post Posted » Mon Jan 31, 2011 1:10 am

    Hi Guys, Boy, you guys have been busy. Sorry that I left my files off of my post Bobby. I had a file ready to go and just forgot to add it to my post. You were right on with that shadow map thing Snoopy. As soon as I copied my diff to a clean white background, the ghost went away. However I spent most of yesterday fighting a sagging door issue. Never had so much trouble before, but I think I'm finally getting the best of it. We'll see how it goes today.

    I'm sorry to hear about the decal trouble. I figured that would be the way to go with this one. Guess I'll have to look at the painting issues once I get that far. Thanks for all the help.
    wingsofphoenixUser avatar
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    Post Posted » Mon Jan 31, 2011 4:50 am

    snoopy55 wrote:The child of b-base you did explain, and I did try it. NifSkope crashed the first two times and took it the third. It still sat solid while the car bounced. This car has (had) cows whiched bounced with it, and they are referenced in the KF files. I was figuring the lack of them in the KFs was the reason.

    When I do the rotation angle thing the decals are laying on their sides. The decals were taken from a GP38 where they worked fine.

    I attached the NIF I worked up.

    Yep you dont need to rotate them, they are already made that way.
    Just rightclick the decal node and choose Block -> Copy Branch (or simple Ctrl+C), select b_base Node with rightclick and Ctrl+V (Paste Branch). Remove the first decal with Ctrl+Del. The only thing you have to do after that is lowering the Z-Position of the new Decal to -20 (because b_base has Z +20, after rotation that is).
    That should fix the bouncing problem ;)
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    Post Posted » Mon Jan 31, 2011 11:12 am

    Been putting decals on this stuff for years (I can actually say that rolff ) and this is the first one that decided to cause trouble. On Engines they are attached to the b_body NiNode and never were a problem. Not having a b_body I realized that b_base had to be the same thing and attached it there. The engine had a Rotation of -90, 0 and -180, so it came out in the wrong position, so I ended up having to zero all three to get it in the correct position, respacing, resizing and shifting it to get it placed correctly. But it still sat still. I tried attaching it to other NiNodes and none worked. I don't know, maybe I connected to the wrong one when I was trying to hit that one....... :Hmmmmm

    Anyway, one thing to remember Slider38, unless wingsofphoenix remodels this one, keep the siding off of the decal. The info and icons are OK tho. The reason is a decal will not make the same color changes as the rest, and you will not get the decal colors to match the painted parts. What you see on mine is testing material. That siding is only there because I had a pic of a car straight on and level. Not easy to find those in the railroad you want. On mose Engine decals I have placed the shadow on top of the decal for better effect. Slow and tedious, but I have the time and like the effect.

    wingsofphoenix, you think you might find the time to work up the car so it will be a bit easier?

    As to the load inside - we can put anything in there, but unless you want to edit all of the KF files, leave the 'cows' NiNode name alone. The KFs use that name to find what they are playing with. Besides, it is not the names in there that really count (tho I have edited some of them myself Hard Labor ), it's getting them to work. Few people open them up.
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    wingsofphoenixUser avatar
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    Post Posted » Tue Feb 01, 2011 4:30 am

    Thats odd, I moved the decal as described above and it works for me (using the original livestock_car_v2_car_layer_run_normal.kf).

    Well I could change the model, that shouldnt take long I guess.
    If you will tell me where you want the ladder attached. At the right corner of the sides like the food car? And whats with the brake wheel at one end? The other changes are quite easy to do.

    I'm working currently on a new engine (shown below), which is quite time-consuming, but I will try to get my hands off of it for a few minutes rolff
    atsf3751_irvne_060108_1.jpg
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    snoopy55User avatar
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    Post Posted » Tue Feb 01, 2011 7:14 am

    Simple enough. I placed the walkways on the wrong sides of the main one, which I redid in the attached NIF. The ladders go under them The brake wheel, I think, would be best like the one you did for the Gondola, simple, but still visable. Be sure to flatten the ends, they look a bit odd buldged out like that. To me at least.

    Shadow maps won't be hard at all since I have them done already in a few different styles for the original Box Cars.

    Slider38, anything you want to add? Hard Labor

    Oh ya, you might want to throw in a version without the walkways on top. Half-height ladders, or let me work up the base and shadow map for that. I've done that on the Box Cars with no problem.
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    slider38User avatar
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    Post Posted » Tue Feb 01, 2011 1:18 pm

    Hi Guys, Well, here is where I am. I have put together a Northern Pacific car for the map I am working on. It looks like this:
    NP_Doubledoor_Boxcar_390099.jpg


    I spent a couple of hours getting one end painted this morning. It didn't turn out badly, but it was not worth the effort. Decals are the only way to go with this car. The car's make up is just too convoluted for painting. I did paint the end number on the diff, but that's it. This was my general model for this:
    NP_Doubledoor box_390099.jpg


    No catwalk. A ribbed car. While I changed the color for my own reasons, it's a reasonable approximation. I have made up a BB of an undecorated doubledoor boxcar if you think it's worth posting. You may want to wait to see what wingsofphoenix comes up with. Meanwhile, the BB of the NP version is attached.

    Download here: viewtopic.php?p=5388#p5388
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    snoopy55User avatar
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    Post Posted » Tue Feb 01, 2011 4:23 pm

    You hit it on the head why I never got anywhere with it. I even started trying to shift parts on the UV but the way this was done, it gave me to much of a headache. Not to mention that the end sections of the sides are switched with the inner sections of the sides. I just do not have a 3D program to dedeal with it. OK, I have Blender, but do not know how to use it...... :Hmmmmm

    Catwalk and no catwalk would be two different versions which wingsofphoenix can easily do. The ribbing is done with the shadow map. I have shadow maps for both ribbed and rivit, short and long ladder. If you let me know what texture you want and can get pictures, for almost any of the cars we use, I can more than likely do up shadow maps for them. Some just take a bit longer than others.

    Your NP Box Car looks good. I did a Wiki search for the railway and from there I got the logo and replaced the one you used. If you use a 128x128 decal, the more the decal fills it, the better it turns out. Just shrink the decal dimensions in the NIF to bring it down to size. I have found the Wikis are great for logos.
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    wingsofphoenixUser avatar
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    Post Posted » Wed Feb 02, 2011 5:46 am

    Here is my changed model, this is what I did:

    - flattened the ends
    - added ladders at the right end of each side and at the back next to..
    - added brake wheel and a step below that (used the one from the gondola)
    - flipped the inside bottom and sides over each other to make room for new stuff
    - connected the side walls where they should be (no need for decals anymore on that)
    - removed all ribs from the inside walls
    - fixed the skininstance of the crates (i thought i did that some weeks ago?^^) which caused crashes
    - made a temp DIFF with the changes (used the sides from the previous decal)
    Doubledoor_Boxcar-Model_Changes.jpg

    Also within the .rar is the new UVW-Map. Hard Labor

    I'm workin on the second version now without catwalk and short ladders as you suggested :)

    P.S. dont bother about the _v4, its just the revision number ;)

    Edit:
    Quick Update, finished the second version, or _v5 how I call it ;)
    Doubledoor_Boxcar-without_Catwalk.jpg
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    snoopy55User avatar
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    Post Posted » Wed Feb 02, 2011 12:03 pm

    Sounds good.

    As to the crates, those were just for testing. What I want to do is either a single 'brick' which can be skinned to look like four or so loaded skids, or four boxes that can be skinned to look like skids. I downloaded some pics of skids from my main texture site. I'll post then when I find them.
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    slider38User avatar
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    Post Posted » Wed Feb 02, 2011 12:15 pm

    Really nice work guys. Snoopy - thanks for the new logo. Looks a lot better than the one I copied off of a photo. Nice work on the cars Wingsofphoenix. You guys are good! :yippey
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    Post Posted » Wed Feb 02, 2011 2:14 pm

    Here are two of the pallet loads I have:
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    snoopy55User avatar
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    Post Posted » Sat Feb 05, 2011 9:11 pm

    Well I got a load of skids in the Doulble Door Boxcar! :yippey

    The attached pic is a bit bad as it is difficult to get the load solid with the doors open. The load also does not bounce around with the car just yet, but the temp meds I'm on do not let me work to long on these things. Also, since the only time you will see the load is when it is loading and unloading, it don't matter much. I'll work on it when my hed is a bit clearer tho.

    What the car contains is the block from the Container Cars, so it can really be skinned to almost anything solid. And, about the only part you have to skin is the part at and around the doors.
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    snoopy55User avatar
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    Post Posted » Sat Feb 12, 2011 8:09 am

    OK, quick post here (the wife is calling me to household duty)

    Here is the final (?) on the doubledoor boxcar.

    Double_Door_Boxcar_shadowing.jpg


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